Q1_Aircraft: Hexatron Engineering, Hexadyne P60 engine

All,
As many of you may know, I have been building a Q1 with the intent of
installing a Hexatron Engineering Inc., Hexadyne P60 four stroke
engine. I am writing this now to warn others to stay away from
Hexatron Engineering and their engine. I have been working with Cy
Williams (Hexatron President) for years now. When I first saw the
engine, it was advertised in Aircraft Spruce and Specialty--leading
me to believe it was currently available (note that AS&S no longer
deals in engines at all). At the time Cy sent me a mock engine (no
pistons, crank etc) so I could build my cowling. I had a custom made
motor mount, constructed by Hexatron Engineering. I had to purchase
it and several other items to mount the mock engine. I built my
cowling and returned the mock engine (others needed it--I was told).
This all made me think that the engine was real, and soon to be in
full production. As time went on, the engine was having oil scavenge
problems, causing delays in the production engines. This was about
two and a half years ago. Working in Aviation R&D I had somewhat of a
tolerance for taking a product to production. I was assured that the
problem was solved and needed flight test only. I ordered an engine
and put down a large deposit. I had a business trip to Brazil and
expected my engine to be here when I returned. Well, no engine. It
seemed that Cy was avoiding my calls. I finally talked to him and was
told he was in final test and everything looked good. Cy sent me a
new oil tank and cooler with larger fittings, Still no engine though.
As time passed, and two weeks, after two weeks occurred I again
called Cy. Apparently he was having problems getting crankshafts
forged (finding a vendor to do small runs). This would be another
delay (on the engine that was ready before I went to Brazil), I was
assured I would be production engine two out of the factory. Well,
months passed again, finally got cranks. New testing showed that
cranks were cracking. This was found to be due to the following: the
forged shaft is hardened then was to be ion nitrided on the bearing
races only, well the vendor ion nitrided the whole crank shaft,
making the counter balance portion brittle. So much for incoming QC.
Cy's answer was to machine away the hardened material (ion nitrided)
where it doesn't belong and run/test the shaft (a structural DER told
me that this was not a good thing to do, it is very difficult to un-
harden metal). Note that the first 50 production crank shafts will be
these modified rejected crankshafts. I was assured this would be
solved and I would soon have my engine. two weeks...two weeks....two
years. To make a long story short, Thanksgiving I placed everything
in a box, and having not getting returned phone calls from Cy at
Hexatron, I shipped everything back. It seems apparent that Hexatron
Engineering is an un ethical company and will force me to fight for
my deposit back. The following is Cy's own words from one of our
final e-mails:

' You have shown remarkable patience and restraint regarding the
shipment of your engine. I understand your frustration and
irritation. My feelings, were I in your situation, would be exactly
the same.'

I have since sent Hexatron Engineering a Certified letter, requesting
my deposit and refunds to be returned....no response. This shows the
ethics of Cy and Hexatron Engineering. Fortunatly the State of Utah
has good consumer laws which I will now need to learn more than I
care to about. That followed by legal action.
Sorry for the long diatribe, but I am warning others who may fall for
this rouse. I don't want someone else's dreams to be shattered due to
an unscrupulous vendor. My Q1 is close to being done, except for
firewall forward. I now need to fight for my money back and find an
alternative engine.

Lessons learned would include. Do not trust anyone who isn't shipping
engines, no matter how close they say they are to production. Don't
give a deposit.

If anyone has had a similar experience with Hexatron Engineering (Cy
Williams) please contact me. Maybe we can consider a class action law
suit, or at least team up legally.

If anyone is actually considering a Hexatron P60 engine, please feel
free to contact me. I can show documentation on everything I have
stated (and then some). I don't want others to have this terrible
experience.

Dave R.
Q1
N4YQ
Looking for an engine and a lawyer.

Ryan,
I was looking at great planes site today. They seem a bit heavy
though. I would sure appreciate any advice you may have. I was
thinking the smaller one with a reduction. I would really like to use
the prop I had made for the P60. It rotates clockwise from the pilots
point of view. I suppose if I had to have a new one made I would. I
was looking at the Aero twin. Vertex from the Czech republic--pricey
though. I really liked www.rotaryae.com but after talking to them it
was around 12K, too much money for me. Maybe I need to get over my 2
stroke paranoia. I was also talking to J-bird....but that is a two
stroke motor cycle engine. Your's was a VW wasn't it? Which one? How
is the mount for a VW? I finally have a hanger. I moved the airplane
to it the saturday after Christmas, no simple task, but it went well.
It's kind of a small milestone, after the engine milestone being
nuked. There is a multi year waiting list for hangers at my local
airport....which happens to be across the street from where I work (S-
Tec has a hanger there also). I'm still kind of really annoyed over
the P60 ordeal.
Thanks,
DAve R.
N4YQ


--- In This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. , 'Ryan' <rryan@...> wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
> I would like to remind you that a 4 cylinder VW engine makes the Q1
> a great performing aircraft. It is not as perfect a fit as the
503cc
> Rotax, however it is trustworthy and has 4 stroke reliability.
>
> Yes there are other engines to choose from but how many have a
> proven track record.
>
> Except for price the 4 cyl Jabiru would be a good choice.
>
> Ryan
>
>
> --- In This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. , 'davedrosen' <d2r@> wrote:
> >
> > All,
> > As many of you may know, I have been building a Q1 with the
intent
> of
> > installing a Hexatron Engineering Inc., Hexadyne P60 four stroke
> > engine. I am writing this now to warn others to stay away from
> > Hexatron Engineering and their engine. I have been working with
Cy
> > Williams (Hexatron President) for years now. When I first saw the
> > engine, it was advertised in Aircraft Spruce and Specialty--
> leading
> > me to believe it was currently available (note that AS&amp;S no
longer
> > deals in engines at all). At the time Cy sent me a mock engine
(no
> > pistons, crank etc) so I could build my cowling. I had a custom
> made
> > motor mount, constructed by Hexatron Engineering. I had to
> purchase
> > it and several other items to mount the mock engine. I built my
> > cowling and returned the mock engine (others needed it--I was
> told).
> > This all made me think that the engine was real, and soon to be
in
> > full production. As time went on, the engine was having oil
> scavenge
> > problems, causing delays in the production engines. This was
about
> > two and a half years ago. Working in Aviation R&amp;D I had somewhat
> of a
> > tolerance for taking a product to production. I was assured that
> the
> > problem was solved and needed flight test only. I ordered an
> engine
> > and put down a large deposit. I had a business trip to Brazil and
> > expected my engine to be here when I returned. Well, no engine.
It
> > seemed that Cy was avoiding my calls. I finally talked to him and
> was
> > told he was in final test and everything looked good. Cy sent me
a
> > new oil tank and cooler with larger fittings, Still no engine
> though.
> > As time passed, and two weeks, after two weeks occurred I again
> > called Cy. Apparently he was having problems getting crankshafts
> > forged (finding a vendor to do small runs). This would be another
> > delay (on the engine that was ready before I went to Brazil), I
> was
> > assured I would be production engine two out of the factory.
Well,
> > months passed again, finally got cranks. New testing showed that
> > cranks were cracking. This was found to be due to the following:
> the
> > forged shaft is hardened then was to be ion nitrided on the
> bearing
> > races only, well the vendor ion nitrided the whole crank shaft,
> > making the counter balance portion brittle. So much for incoming
> QC.
> > Cy's answer was to machine away the hardened material (ion
> nitrided)
> > where it doesn't belong and run/test the shaft (a structural DER
> told
> > me that this was not a good thing to do, it is very difficult to
> un-
> > harden metal). Note that the first 50 production crank shafts
will
> be
> > these modified rejected crankshafts. I was assured this would be
> > solved and I would soon have my engine. two weeks...two
> weeks....two
> > years. To make a long story short, Thanksgiving I placed
> everything
> > in a box, and having not getting returned phone calls from Cy at
> > Hexatron, I shipped everything back. It seems apparent that
> Hexatron
> > Engineering is an un ethical company and will force me to fight
> for
> > my deposit back. The following is Cy's own words from one of our
> > final e-mails:
> >
> > ' You have shown remarkable patience and restraint regarding
> the
> > shipment of your engine. I understand your frustration and
> > irritation. My feelings, were I in your situation, would be
> exactly
> > the same.'
> >
> > I have since sent Hexatron Engineering a Certified letter,
> requesting
> > my deposit and refunds to be returned....no response. This shows
> the
> > ethics of Cy and Hexatron Engineering. Fortunatly the State of
> Utah
> > has good consumer laws which I will now need to learn more than I
> > care to about. That followed by legal action.
> > Sorry for the long diatribe, but I am warning others who may fall
> for
> > this rouse. I don't want someone else's dreams to be shattered
due
> to
> > an unscrupulous vendor. My Q1 is close to being done, except for
> > firewall forward. I now need to fight for my money back and find
> an
> > alternative engine.
> >
> > Lessons learned would include. Do not trust anyone who isn't
> shipping
> > engines, no matter how close they say they are to production.
> Don't
> > give a deposit.
> >
> > If anyone has had a similar experience with Hexatron Engineering
> (Cy
> > Williams) please contact me. Maybe we can consider a class action
> law
> > suit, or at least team up legally.
> >
> > If anyone is actually considering a Hexatron P60 engine, please
> feel
> > free to contact me. I can show documentation on everything I have
> > stated (and then some). I don't want others to have this terrible
> > experience.
> >
> > Dave R.
> > Q1
> > N4YQ
> > Looking for an engine and a lawyer.
> >
>